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The Capital Gang on 91.3 Capital FM, Kampala, Uganda.
Members of parliament have called for the setting up the Truth and reconciliation commission.
It follows the reburial of the remains of the late former commander of the Uganda National Liberation Army (UNLA), Lt Gen Bazilio Olara Okello whose remains were Air lifted back home for a decent burial.
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The Capital Gang on 91.3 Capital FM, Kampala, Uganda.
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The capital Gang Sat 4th April 2015.

Topic: IGP Gen Kale Kayihura on the gang. Following terror alerts, a popular attorney was shot dead on her way home. In Kenya, terrorists attacked a university in Garissa town. There’s another alert now warning schools on Jinja road. How safe are we?

Attendance

Mr. Oscar Semweya Musoke ____________________________Host
Hon Abdul Katuntu ___________________________________FDC
Madam Betty Kamya __________________________________Uganda Federal Alliance
Gen Kale Kayihura _____________________________________Guest (IGP Uganda Police Force)
Mr. Henry Mayiga _____________________________________NRM (mobilizer)
Mr. Ofwono Opondo ___________________________________NRM (ED Uganda Media Centre)

Introductions

Ofwono: (straight from Kyankwanzi) In Kyankwanzi, we have all the RDCs 117 of them, their deputies about 70 in number. To the best of my knowledge, we didn’t grant anybody leave so we expect 100% turn up. We also have the 117 district internal officers. All these reported on Wednesday 8th April 2015 and will be coming out on 18th April 2015. On this very day, we expect Chief Administrative Officers CAOs to join. They are 112 in number. Government and the presidency are making this RDC retreat annual to review their performance, help enhance coordination on implementation of government social services.

Betty: (madam president, welcome to the show) I am gratified about comments made on this program especially about Oscar.

Henry: (he describes himself as a political activist. Welcome to the capital gang) I wish everyone a wonderful Kabaka run tomorrow.

Plenary 1.

Ofwono: (6 people were arrested this week in an operation in Kyengera on Tuesday, Thursday we had 4 in Kasese district, Friday 15 in Soroti. Are we safe?) We are safe. Where are we coming from? Uganda was a failed state in 1985. All major pillars of the state are being built. They are now doing a better job than 5 or 10 years ago. The last major attack on Uganda was in 2010. The security bodies have done a great job. People being arrested in the country, some of these are networks i.e. drug gangs, car thieves, cone men, politically motivated violence like ADF. The management of the security systems has improved. Public should know we are safe.

Betty: (are we confident that Gen Kayihura is keeping us safe?) I confess that I used to be one of those people that used to say may be Uganda was very lucky. I really think we need to congratulate our security institutions because you can’t be lucky all the time. There is something Gen Kayihura is a very hands on person. I repeat what I said last week, there is no security detail that is full proof in the face of a determined assassin e.g. J F Kennedy a heavily protected man was gunned down. I was worried when Kenya set KSH600million bounty for anyone that would give information that would bust alshabab. Uganda set UGSH10million for a lead to the murder of Joan Kagezi. I don’t think this money was not enough. I think so far so good. Uganda is safer than Kenya.

Plenary 2.

(Hon Abdul Katuntu arrives. Wearing a “young shirt”.)

Henry: (are we safe?) In my view, all of in this country are consumers of security. Therefore, we must be concerned as everybody. It’s important for us to appreciate the security agents in this country that have brought us this far. Other than running down the security agencies, I think it’s important for us to appreciate the job they are doing. That takes me to the Museveni doctrine of taming terrorism from source. People say it was wrong for Uganda to go to Somalia. I think this is the reason we are safe as we are. It cannot be possible that we are secure 100% but our security bodies are doing a great job.

Abdul: (you are in position to approve your IGP) I agree that we are subscribers to security. Despite our differences, we all want to get home safe. Without security we are all goofed. Security is a common good. I would like Gen Kayihura to appreciate positive criticism. Take it in good faith because that distinguishes a professional from the rest. I don’t believe that everyone that criticizes security is running them down. Terrorism is real and so we don’t have to vulgarize it. It’s a war where we should all be together.

Yes, the criminal justice system where I am a little bit schooled has a problem. But we don’t have to act in panic or in a way that makes us not different from people living in uncivilized society.

Plenary 3.

Gen Kayihura: (what are these arrests about?) I want to a sure Hon Katuntu that we appreciate criticism. In fact, open criticism and self-criticism are one of our cardinal methods of work. Criminal violence rather than interstate conflict is one of the biggest threats to humanity according to a 2011 report by a group in Geneva that monitor armed violence in the world.

You should never underrate the importance of history. What is happening now has got a historical link. We are where we are because the people are very critical. The country has never been safe and secure as it is today.

(Don’t you think you should re employ operation wembule?) I don’t think that is necessary. Wembule was a sting operation. In my view, at the time we had not built capacity in the police and the inter agency were not as robust as they are today. It’s the support of the people that makes us round up these criminals.

Plenary 4.

Gen Kayihura: (if Hon Ssemujju was here, he would put it to you that in you have been the well-resourced IGP in your reign. In comparison with previous IGPs and consequently your results should by far exceed those of the other IGPs) No, it’s not true. In 1970, the police had 14 or 15 aircrafts. I don’t even have a single one. So it’s factually wrong.

We are facing violent criminality. The biggest problem is the criminal justice system. The biggest problem is repeat offenders. The people that commit crime are recycles offenders. Why is this so? Because of the weakness in the criminal justice system. The foundation of the criminal justice system favors the suspects. I am now demand, just as you demand for fair play in the political system for fair play in the criminal justice system.

I was not proposing that we do away with the criminal justice system and go for the rule of the jungle. Let us overhaul the criminal justice system so that it delivers us substantive justice. I am not having enough time to investigate and then you are stampeding me. This is how the system is operating.

If you noticed year in year out, cases of mob justice are increasing. Because people see the person they saw raping is back from the police station even before the complainant has reached home. The whole thing is becoming a mockery to the justice system.
We have back the law discussions that used to happen at Serena conference center. I believe in the rule of law. The front line troops against terrorists are not the people with guns. It’s the investigator and the prosecutor but who are being let down by the criminal justice system.

Don’t misunderstand me. I support the chief justice when he says we must not compromise fair trial. But it must deliver justice.

(Finally IGP, guns in the hands of especially middle class citizens who we are told are applying in numbers now following the death of Joan Kagezi.) Well, the fire arms act obviously allows people to apply for private fire arms i.e. pistols and a certain category of fire arms. Sometime back National Security council took a stand that we should really be slow. We have to be very careful.

We have so many applications. Look at the crisis in America it’s a very dangerous place to live in because they are guaranteed to own firearms. In our case we haven’t reached there. If you become so liberal, it’s going to be a problem. We are very selective on who license. However having said that, we must review all of this and maybe be guided by parliament. It’s not just the private fire arms that are a threat. The biggest threat are weapons stolen from security agents i.e. police army, private security guards.

(Kenya protested the terror alerts when western embassies put them out. And then it seems two days later they had a big problem and yet you say you are aware and perhaps that’s why you issued a terror alert as well.) There are two reasons we issue terror alerts. Number one is to inform the country. But more important our major weapon, the center of gravity of our success against terrorists is popular vagrancy. It’s important we alert the people. Security will ensure that we have business here.

Plenary 5.

Abdul: (your quick comments. You wanted to take issue with Gen Kayihura.) I still have a little bit difference in the legal justice system. There is no automatic bail anywhere. Soberness of a judge is not about the law. Soberness of a judicial officer is about integrity and appreciating the law. That’s the soberness of it.
A witness who was at the site of crime one year ago may not with vivid memory be able to explain the circumstances surrounding that offense as it happened. You need to bring an accused to justice as soon as possible.

(So what is the police role in that? Isn’t it a judicial role?) No, the police must investigate and the witnesses be brought then compile a file as soon as possible. There are weakness in the criminal justice system but it’s not about the law to be cured, but about how the system works.
If you are fighting terrorism, we need to have a scientific analysis of terrorism. It’s not about investigation and so on. We need to look at the causes. Try to cure it, minimize the risk.

Conclusions.

Ofwono: I don’t think ADF, LRA are in Central African Republic because that’s where they have chosen to go to. They are there because of the capacity of security forces here. The issue of money/bounty. The Americana or people with money are using it.

But I think our security apparatus is not built around mercenary psych. So I think we don’t need to focus on the money but on the popular vigilance for collective security. We need to sort out ideological orientation. The law and justice system must serve the popular justice of the people. I agree with Hon Abdul and Gen Kayihura that we should have a conversation about justice system just like the education system.

Henry: I think the beginning point is to condemn the act of terrorism and never to blame it on a specific group of people. How I wish that we reinvigorate the LC system so that they can carry out some of these duties to know who is in the village.

Betty: Gen Muntu said “it’s good to know where we have come from but more important to know where we are supposed to be”. We cannot be hostages to history. We should always mind where we should be. I agree with the gentlemen that we need a conversation but more importantly an honest conversation. When we are looking at history, please remember that it is spiced with a lot of other things that have to be brought out.

Abdul: I do think the political question of this country is not a gun.

Gen Kayihura: Parading suspects helps us. The chief justice acknowledged that the criminal justice system around world is changing. The British are opting out of their customary system i.e. the common law. To understand where you should be, you must make an analysis of where you are coming from. I agree it should not be selective. The importance of history.

I don’t think there is a fetish about the gun. The democracies are the most heavily armed. In the past, the gun was used against the ballot. Today, it’s used to defend the ballot. That’s the difference. The fight about terrorism must be holistic.
The security of this country has never been better. Right now whatever criminality there is, it can never disturb the stability. During my tenure, crime has been coming down drastically. We must strengthen the LC system.

Our fundamental weapon to fighting crime is not the bounty but popular support of the people.

Note: Text in brackets are word or questions posed by the host of the show.

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